What is church? Really! Is it a location? How many people do you need for it to be 'church'? I'm serious, do we really believe that it is where 'two or more are gathered' or do we need to have Annoucements, Sunday School, Special Music and take an offering for it to be church? Do you have to have a sermon for it to be church? Hey I'm just curious, I sometimes wonder if everything we call church is really 'church'.
I know this with 57,000 people a week disengaging from church, we probably should be rethinking how we do church.
I think there are lots of ways to do church. My Orthodox and Catholic friends wouldn't agree, they seem to be pretty clear on what they think church is and I like to go to their meetings from time to time. I find it enriching and stimulating to my mind and my heart, but I'm not convinced that what they are doing is a replication of the early church.
There are many people who think they know what church is, there are 10's of thousands of examples of this in the Yellow pages across America. What if what Jesus said is true? What if He meant what He said? Just curious, what do you think?
The Wimber Years
Click on picture to read The Wimber Years Blog
About Me
- carlt
- I came to Christ in 1965..I was deeply impacted by the witness and teaching of John Wimber. John was my mentor from that time until July of 1997 and I benefited greatly from this. I have had lots and lots of highs and some severe and serious lows; the church has crushed me like a bug and embraced me and brought healing to me as well. It has been quite a ride. I try in these blogs to reflect on all of this in one way or another.
5 comments:
I think you might be suprised at how Orthodox worship and praxis is not only similiar to but totally in line with the early church. Remember, for 1,000 years if you wanted to be a Christian you were Orthodox!
http://www.geocities.com/chealy5/Learned.htm
That is true. I'm just have had a hard time being convinced that the ritualistic and hierarhical approach was as present in the first 300 years or so.
Not many have died to self or the world, Carl, even those who have accepted Christ as their savior. I think if that happens - should that happen to a person - they are no longer bound by the trappings, constraints, the "forms" of man. God does this to make sure no other voice rules over this new person - except Him. And, if an individual should be broken to be rebuilt under God's authority...that person, being that they "gave in" to the process, has a pretty good idea when God's trying to offer some directionals (thru his "voice"). And because God wants us to be attentive to his voice - not man's or man's trappings - so he'll even have it come through the teeth of a donkey just to see if we're still along for the ride. He has ways, he knows if we're listening to him rather instead of the fears - hidden & real - in our lives. It's all accomplished through obedience - to God, not to man...and God alone knows what it takes in each human being to get that full attention - if only for long enough to get an "impression" (like a seal on a letter) that will last a lifetime. God can now lead that person with anybody or anything he chooses - because they know His voice, even if it comes through the teeth of a donkey. THEY KNOW THAT HE IS, AND HE DOES WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO - BECAUSE IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO HIM (and that's all that matters). Luckily, as we both know, following that voice is nearly impossible; but if we walk forward with our heart right, the 99% we probably get wrong anyway, gets turned right - and we get to share in that grace with everything and everybody we encounter til our time is done.
This document is pretty darn fair. What Carl is addressing is a problem so classic in Evangelical circles. The question should be asked of ANYONE ministering in these settings, whether the person ministering is the "head honcho" or just a "lay person"-"how truely honest should I be about my sin?" I'm not talking about the level 1 sin that is so easy to confess in a group setting. You know-"I yelled at the kids, and kicked the dog"- but the levels 2 and 3 that most all of us have dealt with in some form. These sins are embarissing and if told will at the very least knock us down a rung or 2 in ministry- and truth be told more likely have us end up in the position Carl is. Not only did he lose his job-(he should have)-he lost his income-(he should have)BUT he lost many of his friends-(HE SHOULDN'T HAVE). We all get too shocked at the sin, yet we all know that we struggle. But what we do is ex-communicate people. We cast them out socially. This is not what ex-communication has always been for the historic Church. It has always meant no communion-period. Carl should have been excommunicated by Eucharist and NOT by any of us!! He should have been removed from leadership. He won't argue this. But knowing him personally for over 40 years, I know that being removed didn't kill him. What has killed him has been being so completely rejected by those he thought to be lifetime brothers and sisters.
God have mercy on us all, and mostly on me.
Bruce Heying
Hi Bruce Heying!!!
Do you remember me? You fixed my mom's piano back "in the day". I was 20 at the time. I'm old now. Ha! But you are STILL older than me.
K
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