Note: I don't feel any different about this today than I did when I wrote this opinion. There is alot of posturing and proming going on related to this situation. I don't know where people come up with the 'formulas' for their processes or the time tables they throw out there, but they do it none the less. My feelings about this no doubt are influenced by my experience, but not only as it relates to me, but to so many people I have watch over the years. It is all just so sad and in my opinion shameful. I have recieved some stinging comments already and I have now respoinded, but I would love to hear from anyone who can shed light on the situation. I do know that restoration happens but it is rare and it isn't simply the result of a person failing to go through a process. If you care at all about the state of the church, how we do business, please read this, please think about this, it will happen again, will we ever get it right?
By now millions of people have been made aware of the failings of a Nationally known Christian leader, Ted Haggard. Some will wag their finger and click their tongue. Others will blindly and foolishly stand by their man, no matter what the facts are. Still others will broad brush all Christians as liars and hypocrites. But very few will step back examine themselves and then reach out to a brother who has fallen short of the the standards he himself has set, let alone what we would consider Gods standard.
Those who wag the finger, will single out the nature of the sin and condemn him. Somehow coming to the conclusion that our brothers sin is somewhat blacker and darker than any sin we might commit. How does one distinguish between a sexual sin and the sin of gossip? Is gossip somehow less harmful? Ever read the book of James? How about greed, selfish ambition? Has anyone ever been 'disciplined' for those sins? So what am I saying, that sexual sins are excusable and to be over looked? Not at all, but what I would say is, if we are going to 'discipline' then we should do so without partiality as it relates to the sin or the sinner.
Is there a pastor on the planet who has been disciplined for slander or gossip? Yet gossip is justified, overlooked and accepted as necessary, 'we need to know these things'. I cannot tell you the number of times I have heard this justified in Board meetings or Leadership gatherings.
I once heard a definition of gossip as this, 'it is telling the truth about another person that no one needs to know
."
The problem I have with 'church discipline' is it is so terribly flawed and inconsistent. Please someone somewhere give me a list of 'fallen leaders' who have not simply been disciplined, but restored! The vast majority are simply kicked to the curb, abandoned never to be heard from again. Or as the headline of today's paper read, "Pastor dismissed!" And dismissed he will be, left for the most part to face not only the damage of his own sin, but to bare the sins of those who have embraced him in his success, but don't know how in the world to approach him in his failure. I'm sure that those who are responsible for his 'discipline' will indicate that they are committed to him and will support him, but I have my doubts.
Okay and what about the disciplining of the disipliners! Will we be allowed to examine the examiners? Can we get a peak at their Internet history? Can we review their hotel bills? Their checkbooks? Can we speak with their neighbors, spouses or other family members? Will they reassure us that they have no 'secret sin', that is NO SIN that we are not aware of. Or are we to simply trust them to do what is in the best interest of the man, his family and the church. Please don't do that. Do not trust or take the word of those in charge of the process without them having to prove they are trust worthy. They shouldn't disclose the details of the process, but they should be wide open to how the operation is going and the qualifications of those performing surgery. Have they done this surgery before? How many people have they brought though a restoration process? Where are they? How are they doing?
I can here people now trying to dismiss me or invalidate what I am saying here, 'Oh he is just bitter.' I'm sorry but first of all that isn't the case. Secondly that isn't the issue. The issues are completely related to what is happening to this man Ted Haggard and his family. What is going to be done for him and them. Yes him, he can't be discarded because sin has been discovered. There is NOTHING in the BIBLE that encourages anything other than for him to be given help, 'restored with gentleness'. Send this out far and wide and show me in the Bible where he even has to be dismissed. What it says is he is to be 'rebuked' and publicly, 'so that all may fear'. Really so everyone will know that we don't play favorites. But we do, we have favorite sins that we discipline over and others we simply overlook. Can you imagine if a pastor rebuked before his congregation for sinful behavior, repented and moved forward in that church. Gosh I wonder if his preaching might become a touch less condescending? I wonder if the messages would be stripped of their shaming tactics and guilt inducing exhortations? I wonder if a message of compassion, grace and mercy might appear in place of these? Okay, I'm just fantasizing!
I also wonder about the people 'close' to Ted, how could they not see signs that he was not doing well or that he had 'developed splits'? Maybe they weren't that close at all. Maybe there had been a separation allowed to develop between him and those who worked 'for him', rather than with him. Gosh I wonder if the 'wonder boy' had been idolized by those around him, to the degree that they were blinded to his fallen nature.
I have serious doubts about a process which begins with someone being 'dismissed'. I don't think we will ever see or here from Ted again at the same level he is operating today. Therefore where is the restoration? Oh do you mean he can go to church? How nice.
Yes this ticks me off, without excusing any of his behavior. But his behavior doesn't for one minute justify the behavior of others. He may have 'disqualified himself' from 'elder ship' at least for a season, but he has done nothing worthy of what he is about to face from his brothers and sisters. Maybe those outside the Christian community have a right to respond to a person who has declared publicly his problems with them. But I don't think the church has much of right to do anything but to figure out 'what help is' and then give it in abundance, without judgment, lest they themselves be tempted. Tempted to do what? Sin against this brother.
I will tell you this here and now, if Ted Haggard of how the church finally does the right thing and ministers to a hurting and broken man and family, bring healing and restoration to them. I will eat my blog!
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14 comments:
Isn't it ironic, Carl, that the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable...unless you are a fallen preacher of a "mega church" or "televangelist" running a multi-million dollar ministry? I, too, am irate at a sanctimonious group of men "in charge" who rule over, sorry, oversee some other's "discipline" with no ultimate goal of restoration in mind or, perhaps in some circles, even possible.
As you said, perhaps those disciplining need their "closets" opened to see how neat and tidy it is...
Peace to you my brother, keep on the path.
Timothy
Carl, I want to know what your definition of "restored" is. One thing that we don't need is more preachers. If anything we need less preachers, and just simply more people willing to actually fear God. There is no need for those who have fallen to "be up front anymore". We don't need it. (My opinions) So please tell me and those willing to read this, what retoration looks like to you.
Another comment I would make here after re-reading Timothy's comments, is what is being shared here is a perfect example of Protestantism. You guys all protest. Nobody is in charge. You don't like the disciplines you received. You want to judge those who have judged you. Sounds like rebellious teenagers pissed off at their parents. Are you not aware that your own parents where wrong at times when they disciplined you? But they where still your parents, and still in charge. This rebellious attitude represents the heart of Protestantism, and the reason many are leaving non-denominational churches in droves. Timothy, you and I have gone over this before. Who do you submit to? Just God. How convenient! Find some authority somewhere and submit to it when you don't agree. Then we might be able to call ourselves "Christians".
Bruce,
Re-read my comments any way you like, interpret them any way you like.
I agree entirely the last thing we need is more preachers. That's probably what caused much of the problem in recent years. There is way too much preachin going on and not enough getting out of the walls of the buildings called churches.
I'm judging no one, I'm not pissed off at anyone. I am not rebellious, never been "disciplined" by any "authority" in any church I've attended. I've been corrected and set right in some things I was wrong about and aren't scarred at all as a result. I've also been called on the carpet and disagreed with the situation and remained in leadership under those I disagreed with. I "submitted" to their way even though I disagreed, it wasn't a major deal.
I attend a church, love the man who is our pastor. We are a group of people who are desiring to win their neighbors and their neighborhoods to Christ. We are trying to be change agents in our communities and see the Kingdom come and God's will be done.
I will not take your advise to "Find some authority somewhere and submit to it when you don't agree. Then we might be able to call ourselves "Christians".". You can call yourself Christian and judge who is or isn't by that measuring rod, but I don't think it's quite that simple.
One last thing to answer your question. I don't look at restoration as putting the fallen back where they were when they were caught. Restoration to me is getting back to what God created one to be, being restored to the gifts and talents and callings He gave. It is overcoming the sin issues and returning to living a godly life, even in the midst of the ongoing temptations and pulls of the other side. To do that there has to be a lot more relationship and a lot less disciplining and shunning going on by whoever is supposedly the "authority" in the situation.
Love ya Bro! I really do.
Peace!
Timothy
Timothy, You are right in much of what you say here. It is not as simple as I may have stated. I too am trying to make changes for the better of my community and the world around me. We all know that Christ is the answer for our communities and for our world.
Perhaps my frustrations come from the endless splits and lack of order that we see so often today. This isn't what Calvin and Luther had in mind. Carl's post here spoke about this fallen man. This is such a tragedy. I was unaware of this situation. While there is the personal tragedy he has gone through for him and his family, the other tragedy is how the non-Christian world looks at us and laughs. Much of their laughter is legitimate. The non-Christian world see men who say they are Christians preaching and behaving shamefully. It adds fuel to their fire. I do know that there are times we will all fall, but I am hopeful that we can do more to unite and not split apart. No matter how gifted a man may be the kingdom of God needs us unified as one to impact the world. It was Christ's last words before the horror of the cross. "make them one Father".
As you have encountered with myself, I can be short and abrasive. Far from a good example of Christianity. God help me. I don't want this next thing to sound like an excuse, but I want us to remember that I am not the pastor of a Church or a priest. While I believe in the priesthood of all believers, I do believe that there are men set apart to lead us who have been given greater responsibility than myself. We must treat them with great respect and love. If a man falls while leading, he must still be treated with great respect and love. He is a child of God. But I do unfortunately believe the verse "it would be better a millstone be put around your neck and cast to the deepest sea than to lead these little ones astray".
Carl's submission to the disciplines given to him are quite rare today. Most men in his place would have just started a new Church on their own. Carl could have done this. However, he submitted even though he felt much of it unfair, to the glory of God. I agree with much of what he has said regarding this. I am so thankful that this has not been another painful example of a man doing his own thing and ignoring those put before him.
Thank you for your patient response to me,
Bruce
No worries Bruce. I try to remember not to infer too much in emails and blog entries. Sometimes one can read the message and get a totally different feel from what was intended.
I pray that these issues serve to point out to us our desperate and absolute need for a Savior. I know it does to me, realizing that my own life has its own "dark side" as Ted put it. Mine isn't in the same vein as his but is no less potentially destructive.
It says that His people cast off restraint when there is a lack of revelation in the Book (my paraphrase anyway). My hope for myself is that I maintain my revelation of Who God is, that He has a plan that includes me and that He is faithful and He will bring it to pass if I don't give up.
You, me, Carl and everyone else has that promise. Sometimes my revelation gets obscured by the crap going on around me. I lose sight of Him and get twisted around and lost momentarily. Yet, at 53 years of age I know, I mean I really KNOW that He loves me, that He's for me and that He will sustain me through it all.
He will use men and women in my life to accomplish that, be it in person or in forms like this where we share things. We can disagree and think differently, we can have unity without uniformity and still love one another in it all. At least, I hope so.
I have that short and abrasive side at times myself, Bruce, so no offense is taken on my part. It's all good.
Peace!
Timothy
Okay, this is mostly in answer to Bruce, whom I love and appreciate so much. But before I do, I will publicly state that what he said about me regarding 'you guys don't like the discipline you received'. In my case nothing could be further from the truth. Not only did I accept the discipline, I honestly don't think there would have been any process what so ever if I didn't press for it. What I don't like, is when systems, such as they are, claim to administrate fair, impartial and just processes only to cave in to pressures from the real influencers. I hate the inconsistency of application of the process, discipline for some sins and completely ignoring other sins. Greed, selfish ambition, gossip, malicious talk are 100 per cent ignored, yet someone drinks too much wine and they are cast into utter darkness! It's all so stupid and the group I was involved in leads the pack.
I can understand Bruce's frustration and distain for a system ‘Protestantism’ that is so fragmented and disjointed, where authority has no real basis or boundary.
That said, in answer to Bruce's question regarding restoration, I think it means just that. If I have an old 57 Chevy and want to restore it, I try to make it like it was when it was new. So if 'Joe Smoe' falls or fails, if he/she is willing then I think they are put back in the position they held. I don't think the scripture calls for anything different. I know there are a million mitigating circumstances and situations and context make a difference. For instance, you have a guy who is using his spiritual authority and position to take advantage of those he has 'authority' over that is a huge problem. But a guy looking at a Playboy that is not the same thing.
In all this I'm not arguing that the protestant way is better than the Orthodox way, I'm just expressing my views as it relates to the sorry system I have chosen to affiliate my sorry self with.
10:40 PM
Carl, Thank you for taking the time to comment a bit more in depth regarding restoration. When I said that "you guys didn't like the discipline you received"--actually, I didn't like much of the discipline you received, but was impressed that you submitted to it to the glory of God the Father! Very rare. Most men would just "resore themselves" and start their own Church. Thank you for not doing this. You have played by the rules and as a result my fervent belief and prayer is that God is going to bless you mightily for this.
Again, thank you for responding to my question!
Would it be possible for Christians to reevaluate their position in this world as far as what part they are to play when ministering to a lost world without having to manipulate the government and the constitution to promote their own idea of right and wrong? This is to me the reason why Ted Haggard has been singled out as a target. This man has spent much time feeding homophobic attitutes toward same sex couples wishing to spend their lives together in marrige while for three years he indulged in methamphetamines and had an affair with another man, basicly deceiving people around him. I might add that he is an example of what goes on with many people in his position of authority. It is not really even the meth and affair that is the problem here but the insistence of forcing through legistlature that everyone, believers and non-believers alike follow the Bible's idea of morality. This is embarrassing to church authority when one of it's leaders steals away to commit a "sin" that they so condem of those that are not even involved with the Christian faith, and the church loses credibility. I do agree that Ted needs compassion from his fellow believers but as long as the church continues to cling to this idea that it has to control peoples personal lives this will continue to be a problem.
Blessed be
Thanks Carl! I believe your life totally qualifies you to comment and any one who judges your heart because of your past is simply bound by the same system that is handleing Ted's "SITUATION". If I am not mistaken the NAE has a policy of one slip in pornography demands "dismisal". Sadly this may have been Ted's initiative. How can any person made to be attracted to the other sex in Creation be so "ILLUSIONARY" as to think they have not had impure thoughts or viewed any thing that would be "porn" in description. I am not advocating licentiousness but reality.
Here is my swing at it! Let's read the whole Bible and pray we can be healthier in our understanding of sin as a condition and not an occassion. Unless we realize we are declared guilty by the Cross and innocent by the Word of God how will we even understand life. What do we have to say to one another about "WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS"? Was Ted "ok" before he acted out his sinful desires. How long ago did he take his first step into sexual impurity? Or has the Church's actions indicate that we believe it just happened all of the sudden! Good Ted became Bad Ted! I am so guilty of judging my faith community. So addicted to expecting more from others than Christ does--It is sickening! But having found myself so short of "attaining my goal" I presume everyone else has fallen short and I can now accept "Raggamuffins".
As long as we continue to pursue that high calling recognizing our need of the LORD and his Church I believe we have integrety.
One strike and your out is for FELONS not the people of God who
"therefore have now no condemnation"!
The unbelieving world is watching and I ponder----will they see the imaging of our LORD in this critical and significant situation. Can we care more about being definitive in our position on sin and discipline and not show one another the reality that the Church is the House of Pardon that understands humanity in a like manner as Jesus, our high priest, understands?
I could go on forever but then you would have to change the name on your blog. "But"(as they say) I think the Christian has a one in a lifetime opportunity to "shine like stars" by speaking of our trust in the LORD to restore Ted and witness to our faith in Jesus and with all our heart say Ted Haggart is my Brother and The LORD is not through with Ted.
By the way "the one strike your out" motion failed to pass at the last Triune Board meeting. It was defeated 3 to 0!!!
Ted if you need a place of healing, love, understanding, and the power to redeem and can not find it in the Church please call me and we will go get some help on the outside. But the truth be known the Church is the right place because it is still The LORD'S Church. Our opportunity today is to "give the church back to Jesus" and let her "shine like a light on a hill". As paradoxical as it may appear the Church is the Hope of the World.That is IF we welcome sinners!
Billy Bob
You know what irritates me and breaks my heart the most in all this is that the whole sorry mess was so unnecessary, but given the state of the church unavoidable.
Maybe you can answer this, Carl: what resources are there for a high profile minister to be honest and come clean about sin in his life that has him in its grip before it reaches a level that destroys him? Where can those in ministry find true ministry?
To me, the church has failed Ted Haggard and his family far more than he has failed the church.
This should be a book (Carl's opening blog). Sin discrimination is rampant in too many circles. Help people get help and then get them back to what they are called to. To create unbiblical roadblocks sounds like sin. And if we error we should error on the side of mercy and grace. This should be especially true in the Church. That doesn't mean we throw wisdom to the wind. I am calling for hiding problems like some parts of the Catholic Church have done. We can't let molesters, etc. run loose. But it does mean that too many beers, which is not good, is no more of a problem, and often less of one, than say gossip, slander or libel.
I think Carl's opening blog is the start of a good book. Carl should pray about it.
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